First off, let me say that I tried to set a good example of body dragging out a few days ago-in low tide water, maybe 2 feet at the shore. I got 2 really nasty shell cuts from this and I guarantee I will not be doing that again unless it is high tide and an obvious bunch of beginners watching that need to be "taught."
Also, Jeff, I know this comment must somewhat stem from our brief interaction on the beach the otherday when I told you I though it was B.S. to have to land my brand new crossbow on the water when there wasnt a soul around to care about it. Hence my comment about I was only going to do this when there were families and in general weekends. I think we need to just be smart about it and unfortunately this makes gray area. Yesterday at Alameda there was a guy with a flysurfer that didnt know what the hell he was doing and/or there was little wind. I know I could have kept my kite up and I think he may have had some problems with adjustments. But I didnt know what to say or do as he was in the water dragging down the beach and basically doing everything we talked about not doing on the weekends. He must have crashed the kite 5 times on the beach, through a lesson, and kept trying. There are also alot of people that are starting to lay their lines out upwind and leaving their kites in the middle of the launch zone regularly, right in front of Rebecca and Jane. I almost take it personally when they don't bitch at them for setting up properly as I seem to get my fair share of shit from both of them.
Basically, if I have any point at all, it is that our meeting has only gone so far and seems to have left us lazy agaain. I know many that were starting to talk about the whole body dragging thing and self rescuing below the antenna and noone was willing to do it on days that there were only 2 families on the whole beach. I have seen all the kite gods do it so far except for a few.
The bushes being cut down seems to have added a few more kite parking spaces but people need to learn to rig their kites such that others can run their lines out parrallel to theirs without gettiong crossed.
I think that with the amount of new kiters at Alameda beach, unfortunately the regulars, mainly Boardsports is going to have to do alot more informing to the beginners as they are really the ones that are able to teach good ettiquette from the beginning. And to clarify I am not trying to relieve myself of any duties or responsibilities I may also have as a kiter.
New Policy/Alameda
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windhorny
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e_ramon
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just out of curiosity what are the rules? i use alameda for getting my timeing down for jumps. during this time of the season i go to coyote point, but i like alameda because i can go downwind and push jumps. the wind this time of year is low, but enough to try different things under some control. last weekend i saw people launching below the shack where i normaly launch, but i launched from the shack thinking it was the rule. any way just curious.
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windhorny
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THere are a handful of people down there, some live there such as Don that are resistant to starting up ata the shack. I think the big issue is just that the city primarily doesnt want kiters walking their kites up the beach when there are a lot of people on the beach. In my opinion, conflicting somewhat with many of the self-procalimed kitegods, there is not a big issue walking your kite up the beach if there is noone there. Just be confident enough that you arent going to drop your kite in the street or on anyone. If you cant do that then I would say wrap your shit up before coming up. What I do is make sure I set my downwind point at the end of the tall apartments. That way it is a quick sprint up to the start. Normally when I do this, there is noone there but perhaps a few beginners. So the big issue is, if I do this am I setting a bad example? I would say yes based on the fact that one may assume they can do this on busy weekends. But I would aslo say no if people know their own abilities and just make sure that we give people the right of way and just be really aware of any attitudes or possible situations that could bring red flags to our sport.
I have talked to basically everyone about this except for Ollie and Charlie, who rudely got in my face with abundant authority telling me I was setting a bad example by coming in to the beach for a few seconds to get some blood back in my feet. I was literally there for 30 seconds constantly aware of my surroundings and who was coming in and out. I was in no ones way at all, I simply needed some warm sand on my numb feet for a half a minute before going back out. Charlie, if you are reading this, I think you could have made your point clearly without the continuing song and dance. Telling me I am doing something wrong and yelling in my face over and over to the point of making me feel embarrased to be taking that from anyone is not an effective way of getting the issue resolved. And when you yell at me on the water, as loud as you are, I can't hear you! All the instructors and a few others agree that there is alot of grey area in these rules we have applied to ourselves. I think we just need to be aware of the consequences and be prepared to self land and avoid people but not be so scared of it you have to worry if someone is going to run up to you and yell in your face and write you a ticket for running your kite up a deserted beach a couple hundred feet.
On the otherhand I can see how begginers would get mixed messages by this and I appologize to all the self proclaimed kitegods in advance for coming in and out of the beach as quickly as possible and running my kite up a deserted beach on a cold foggy day.
I have talked to basically everyone about this except for Ollie and Charlie, who rudely got in my face with abundant authority telling me I was setting a bad example by coming in to the beach for a few seconds to get some blood back in my feet. I was literally there for 30 seconds constantly aware of my surroundings and who was coming in and out. I was in no ones way at all, I simply needed some warm sand on my numb feet for a half a minute before going back out. Charlie, if you are reading this, I think you could have made your point clearly without the continuing song and dance. Telling me I am doing something wrong and yelling in my face over and over to the point of making me feel embarrased to be taking that from anyone is not an effective way of getting the issue resolved. And when you yell at me on the water, as loud as you are, I can't hear you! All the instructors and a few others agree that there is alot of grey area in these rules we have applied to ourselves. I think we just need to be aware of the consequences and be prepared to self land and avoid people but not be so scared of it you have to worry if someone is going to run up to you and yell in your face and write you a ticket for running your kite up a deserted beach a couple hundred feet.
On the otherhand I can see how begginers would get mixed messages by this and I appologize to all the self proclaimed kitegods in advance for coming in and out of the beach as quickly as possible and running my kite up a deserted beach on a cold foggy day.
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Don Bogardus
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Safety in general
I have walked my kite up beach from my apt. at Grand Ave. recently when flood tide and onshore winds make it impossible to stay or gain upwind ground.I am not edangering people when there is none, or very few people on beach, and i have witnessed mostly good judgment being excercised.Self policeing those not using good judgement has so far not created any hard feelings from those i have given pointers to correct the errors in their practise.The more we all help others to get up to speed, the safer the beach will become.Strict laws are a last resort, and should not be taken lightly, and will not prevent accidents any way.Is driving any safer with all the laws that exist???. I rest my case.Its whos driving, and thank god kiters in general seem to have more sense than a very large percentage of sobs out there on the roads!!.
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charlie
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windhorny
iam sorry if you feel iam yelling,i talk real load.
and when i try to talk to you about anything ,you say " iam not hraring any of this."...? i figuer you cant hear so good so i ...
if you can excuse your self from the rules then, i can, and chip can ,and then when does it stop ?
you started out telling us kiters, that you didnt need a leash.
then you told us you can boost on the beach with out a leash, becouse your good...?
now your telling us your not gonna follow the guild. that you helped make.
Becouse you just wonna kite....?
fine. i dont exspect anything more from you.
if you would just leve the front of the shack alone so kiters can come and go with out you blocking the lunch, or warming your feet or what ever.......i would talk very softly.
and o you can find hot sand upwind or downwind from the shack.(but you gatta stop right in front of the shack).....?
i do not think ollie was invalled at all, he was kiteing.
and why is it every time i go to alameda your kiteing right in front of the shack or on a downwind trip just 100 feet or so off shore...?
any way i just want you to move it, up or down from the shack. ill eat the draging out 200 feet.
also jane and rebbeca have other stuf to do ,then take up your slack of
show n the right stuff. witch you do not.
iam sorry if you feel iam yelling,i talk real load.
and when i try to talk to you about anything ,you say " iam not hraring any of this."...? i figuer you cant hear so good so i ...
if you can excuse your self from the rules then, i can, and chip can ,and then when does it stop ?
you started out telling us kiters, that you didnt need a leash.
then you told us you can boost on the beach with out a leash, becouse your good...?
now your telling us your not gonna follow the guild. that you helped make.
Becouse you just wonna kite....?
fine. i dont exspect anything more from you.
if you would just leve the front of the shack alone so kiters can come and go with out you blocking the lunch, or warming your feet or what ever.......i would talk very softly.
and o you can find hot sand upwind or downwind from the shack.(but you gatta stop right in front of the shack).....?
i do not think ollie was invalled at all, he was kiteing.
and why is it every time i go to alameda your kiteing right in front of the shack or on a downwind trip just 100 feet or so off shore...?
any way i just want you to move it, up or down from the shack. ill eat the draging out 200 feet.
also jane and rebbeca have other stuf to do ,then take up your slack of
show n the right stuff. witch you do not.
charlie
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kitechick
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So it seems we have to separate 2 issues in that discussion:
1. The "real" danger and
2. The threat of having the beach being closed to kiting because of reasons which do not have to do with any real danger but simply scared people, bystanders.
1. The "real " danger. The probability of having an accident and causing damage to the kiter or others. I agree with Yuri that the probability of having an accident involving others is low on days where the beach is empty. I am thinking Winter for example.
But this is not the reason for the Alameda policies and it is not the real issue we are all concerned about.
2. The way it started was that the Park had received complaints from beachgoers about people flying their kites while walking. They felt probably threatened by that big thing over them. There were no reports about real accidents or threats involved. It was simple fear of bystanders.
Actually - I once witnessed - how a little girl shrieked and panicked by just seeing that kite above her. Although it was a controlled and perfectly safe situation. '
But - that is the real problem because that leads to complaints, complaints from bystanders are a serious issue for us kiters. Also when those complaints related to relatively safe situations.
Also - I often see cops watching the traffic at the pole and watching the kites. It is obvious what they are concerned about - cardrivers on the road getting distracted by those big kites being flown so close to the cars. (I myself get distracted).
So - just that imaginary scare of a few may spoil it. Even on an empty beach, one person can be enough (most Alamedans love the kites btw). And that is a really good reason to not walk your kite back.
Not kiting in front of the shack in certain distance - this is self expalining.
Not jumping close to shore (should be 200 m in my opinion not just feet) is self explaining.
Bodydragging out at high tide instead of waterstarting at he beach - is self expalining. I mean - this is not really difficult - or is it?
Not sure why you want to bodydrag at low tide, just walk out into the water, pointing the kite to the water. I thought this is not a difficult suggestion either. Or is it? Maybe it is really hard to understand?
Don't attach a board leash before launching or while flying your kite for a while on the beach, better - do not fly the kite on the beach at all, just move into the water (this is an easy one I thought but still see people doing that)
The list could be continued easily. Most is common sense, really.
- Sylvia
1. The "real" danger and
2. The threat of having the beach being closed to kiting because of reasons which do not have to do with any real danger but simply scared people, bystanders.
1. The "real " danger. The probability of having an accident and causing damage to the kiter or others. I agree with Yuri that the probability of having an accident involving others is low on days where the beach is empty. I am thinking Winter for example.
But this is not the reason for the Alameda policies and it is not the real issue we are all concerned about.
2. The way it started was that the Park had received complaints from beachgoers about people flying their kites while walking. They felt probably threatened by that big thing over them. There were no reports about real accidents or threats involved. It was simple fear of bystanders.
Actually - I once witnessed - how a little girl shrieked and panicked by just seeing that kite above her. Although it was a controlled and perfectly safe situation. '
But - that is the real problem because that leads to complaints, complaints from bystanders are a serious issue for us kiters. Also when those complaints related to relatively safe situations.
Also - I often see cops watching the traffic at the pole and watching the kites. It is obvious what they are concerned about - cardrivers on the road getting distracted by those big kites being flown so close to the cars. (I myself get distracted).
So - just that imaginary scare of a few may spoil it. Even on an empty beach, one person can be enough (most Alamedans love the kites btw). And that is a really good reason to not walk your kite back.
Not kiting in front of the shack in certain distance - this is self expalining.
Not jumping close to shore (should be 200 m in my opinion not just feet) is self explaining.
Bodydragging out at high tide instead of waterstarting at he beach - is self expalining. I mean - this is not really difficult - or is it?
Not sure why you want to bodydrag at low tide, just walk out into the water, pointing the kite to the water. I thought this is not a difficult suggestion either. Or is it? Maybe it is really hard to understand?
Don't attach a board leash before launching or while flying your kite for a while on the beach, better - do not fly the kite on the beach at all, just move into the water (this is an easy one I thought but still see people doing that)
The list could be continued easily. Most is common sense, really.
- Sylvia
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windhorny
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Should I even respond to all this? It seems most days I am out there with not enough wind for my small fin-shy board to make it back upwind, there are very few if any people at all. I also want to say that I come in at the end of the first set of apartments as to walking all the way up the beach. It is a quick sprint and has never offended anyone but self proclaimed kite-gods!
Understand clearly that I love this sport with a passion and I would not do anything to jjeapordize my favorite sport and hobby.
After our first meeting I felt extremely guilty about walking up the beach on a non crowded day just a few hundred feet south of the antenna. After talking to many people-instructors, and others no names here, but basically we decided that it is bullshit to be afraid of sprinting a few hundred feet below the antenna just because this was the decision we all decided to enforce on busy days. I am also aware of the kite flying over cars and the road. I always try to fly it as high as possible.
I have promised to myself that I will not do any of these things if I see families on the beach, or anyone that seems bothered by selfish act of kite walking. I do agree with Chalie that there is an issue with beginners learning from my bad examples. What truly bothers me personally is that I feel like it is something more personal when I seem to be the only one getting bitched at for this. In turn, I dont feel like participating in anything we talk about if it doesnt apply to everyone. And just a few days ago Charlie and Ollie were busting jumps, crashing kites and swooping onto sand every tack. Do I care, no, they are competant kiters and there were no real beginners out watching and it was not a great day for people to get a sun tan. But what does this mean when Charlie yells at me the day before about coming in to the beach for 30 seconds to adjust my footstraps and get some blood in my feet-when I am in noone's way-except for, of course, Charlie's, whos way I was only in because he walked 3 feet infront of me to tell me I was setting a bad example and he didnt care what I was doing on the beach as it wasnt landing. And ironically enough Ollie crashes his kite 5 feet from shore right as we are talking(if you can call that talking-more yelling). And I appologize for bringing you into this Ollie as you are pretty neutral in all this but I feel like if he cant say the same things to everyone as he does me, I am obviously going to take this persoanlly. I just dont see the point in making enemies at home. As I wrote before there are much more productive ways to get your views accross. I even tried unwrapping your kite on the water after this and you didnt even acknowledge this. Do you think I gave a shit about you sitting in the water after you have been yelling at me day after day? NO, not really. That was my way of trying to break some ice between us and you still couldnt even say thanks afterwards. There is obviously something personal going on here and because of it, I am basically going to disregard all your future comments on my kiting etquette as they are clearly biased.
It makes me angry that I cant just use my own judgement on empty beach days and kite as safely as possible, especially when my rules are set by someone who loves playing cop without the badge.
Understand clearly that I love this sport with a passion and I would not do anything to jjeapordize my favorite sport and hobby.
After our first meeting I felt extremely guilty about walking up the beach on a non crowded day just a few hundred feet south of the antenna. After talking to many people-instructors, and others no names here, but basically we decided that it is bullshit to be afraid of sprinting a few hundred feet below the antenna just because this was the decision we all decided to enforce on busy days. I am also aware of the kite flying over cars and the road. I always try to fly it as high as possible.
I have promised to myself that I will not do any of these things if I see families on the beach, or anyone that seems bothered by selfish act of kite walking. I do agree with Chalie that there is an issue with beginners learning from my bad examples. What truly bothers me personally is that I feel like it is something more personal when I seem to be the only one getting bitched at for this. In turn, I dont feel like participating in anything we talk about if it doesnt apply to everyone. And just a few days ago Charlie and Ollie were busting jumps, crashing kites and swooping onto sand every tack. Do I care, no, they are competant kiters and there were no real beginners out watching and it was not a great day for people to get a sun tan. But what does this mean when Charlie yells at me the day before about coming in to the beach for 30 seconds to adjust my footstraps and get some blood in my feet-when I am in noone's way-except for, of course, Charlie's, whos way I was only in because he walked 3 feet infront of me to tell me I was setting a bad example and he didnt care what I was doing on the beach as it wasnt landing. And ironically enough Ollie crashes his kite 5 feet from shore right as we are talking(if you can call that talking-more yelling). And I appologize for bringing you into this Ollie as you are pretty neutral in all this but I feel like if he cant say the same things to everyone as he does me, I am obviously going to take this persoanlly. I just dont see the point in making enemies at home. As I wrote before there are much more productive ways to get your views accross. I even tried unwrapping your kite on the water after this and you didnt even acknowledge this. Do you think I gave a shit about you sitting in the water after you have been yelling at me day after day? NO, not really. That was my way of trying to break some ice between us and you still couldnt even say thanks afterwards. There is obviously something personal going on here and because of it, I am basically going to disregard all your future comments on my kiting etquette as they are clearly biased.
It makes me angry that I cant just use my own judgement on empty beach days and kite as safely as possible, especially when my rules are set by someone who loves playing cop without the badge.
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Jeff Ruoss
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Is another meeting of Alameda kiters in order?
Don't post your answer just send an e-mail to me jeff@kitewindsurf.com if you think we should get together one more time before the season ends.
Don't post your answer just send an e-mail to me jeff@kitewindsurf.com if you think we should get together one more time before the season ends.
Jeff Ruoss
Ex- Kite Shop Owner
Ex- Kite Shop Owner
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charlie
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windhorny
after a few days kiteing with you i see you very compadent kiter.
and yes you saw ollie jumping right on the beach and he got a charlie bitch n at too! ask him. dude you got the facts all wrong
as for me, no sir i did not jump in front of the beach and i do not ride in front of the beach i do drag out. now i did make some inside tacks way upwind from the shack. and my kite never hit the ground or water
also just so you know i start at the top of the kite chain and work my way down to the small kiters. so i guess i pick on you becouse your good , and can help me set the right exsample!
as for my kite, dont touch it unless i ask for help, i know you ment well
but i didnt want you fuc% n with it at all. so no no thank you for getting in my way
as far as me being a kite cop. you think i like haveing to baby sit grown men...?
after a few days kiteing with you i see you very compadent kiter.
and yes you saw ollie jumping right on the beach and he got a charlie bitch n at too! ask him. dude you got the facts all wrong
as for me, no sir i did not jump in front of the beach and i do not ride in front of the beach i do drag out. now i did make some inside tacks way upwind from the shack. and my kite never hit the ground or water
also just so you know i start at the top of the kite chain and work my way down to the small kiters. so i guess i pick on you becouse your good , and can help me set the right exsample!
as for my kite, dont touch it unless i ask for help, i know you ment well
but i didnt want you fuc% n with it at all. so no no thank you for getting in my way
as far as me being a kite cop. you think i like haveing to baby sit grown men...?
Last edited by charlie on Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
charlie
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charlie
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