Kite riding on snow vs. water

[michael]

"Learning to snowkite is the easiest and safest way to get into kite riding" - that is what I found on a web-site of a snowkiting school.

The EASIEST and the SAFEST.

I had an experience with a friend who started on snow and I came to a totally opposite conclusion. Even though many things are indeed easier on snow (e.g. waterstart, going upwind, relaunch (especially foils), etc.) - I believe it's not easier and for sure not THE safest way to learn kite riding.

So I posted my thoughts on a forum "Snow/Land", and almost got eaten alive. Guys from Minnesota ride bows and hybrids by the end of their very first lesson. Guys from Norway and Sweden claim skiers pick all kite skills within 1-2 hours. And so on, and on. I was told how long it takes to learn watestart, and was shocked to learn that THE biggest problem on the water could be... you can get drown.

Anyway, I did not find a single person on my side. Let's see if anyone here thinks otherwise.

So, if your wife, husband, girlfiend, boyfriend, etc. - if he/she one day decides to learn kite riding, would you EVEN consider to have his/her FIRST lesson on the snow because they claim this is the easiest and the safest way to learn ?

Michael.

[Bulldog]

As usual, the answer is: It depends.

On snow, there is no "getting up". You are moving forward the instant the kite is powered. Flip side: you are moving faster, quicker than you ever would be the first time you tried to water start. Can be terrifying for anyone not used to high speeds on skis/snowboard.

On the other hand, if you screw up in the water, you fall down into water, which is liquid (duh). If you (when you) screw up on the snow, you are falling on land, even if it has a snow pillow on it. Getting dragged by a kite on land is pretty scary, especially on snowboard (no releasable bindings).

Going upwind is so easy on snow that the real problem is usually getting back downwind. No question that it is quicker to learn upwind skills on the snow. However, I don't believe that just because someone can go upwind on the snow means they will be able to do so on water; it's much to do on water.

Relaunching anything but a foil on snow is a pain in the ass, usually requiring a second person. This is a major impediment to learning, especially if you get a mile or so upwind of your buddy before you crash your kite. So foil is a better bet.

BUT, to a beginner kiteboarder, a foil kite does alot of things "opposite" of a LEI. For example, to relaunch, you have to "depower" (throw the bar) and take pressure off the trailing edge. If a beginner has been learning on an LEI and tries to snowkite with a foil, this could possibly rock their world and freak them out.

All of the above are things I have learned from experience, BTW.

[elli]

My experience was that it was easier, but I doubt that "any skier can pick kite skills in 1-2 hours". Maybe a skier that is also a kiteboarder :)

I could ski upwind and back on the kite in one session, and it took much more on the water. That was on a foil with little depower (more or less like C kite). But I already had kite skills, so I guess it saved me two hours :)

It can be intimidating because on skies you pick up speed quickly, and the first thing I was thinking is how the hell do I stop. In my first hours I pulled the release many times when things seemed to go out of control.

I can imagine that it is more dangerous, long skies can twist you legs, trees and rocks, hard snow and so on. I had wipeouts on the water that on skies would probably end up very different.

I think it gets down to kite skill. Many people know how to ski/snowboard, and if they have a lot of kite practice on a decent size kite (not a 2m trainer) then it should be OK.

[LionKite]

Relaunching anything but a foil on snow is a pain in the ass, usually requiring a second person. This is a major impediment to learning, especially if you get a mile or so upwind of your buddy before you crash your kite. So foil is a better bet.

BUT, to a beginner kiteboarder, a foil kite does alot of things "opposite" of a LEI. For example, to relaunch, you have to "depower" (throw the bar) and take pressure off the trailing edge. If a beginner has been learning on an LEI and tries to snowkite with a foil, this could possibly rock their world and freak them out.

All of the above are things I have learned from experience, BTW.

You obviously didn`t try a bow/sle type kite on the snow! Just hot launch it and push the bar away, you don`t need an other person .Foils and beginers is like water and oil !

[Hana]

"Learning to snowkite is the easiest and safest way to get into kite riding"

Do you believe in sales catch?

I agree with Bulldog, it depends on a person's background...If someone is afraid of water, then maybe it's not even an option to kite on the water. For me, I don't like to be cold and am not too comfortable with snow much (due to snowboarding injuries..) and have never kited on snow, so, I cannot compare with snow vs. water, but I think maneuver of kite is critical no matter where you learn, land or water. It also depends on their preference too. I'd separate snowkiting and kiteboarding a different (similar?) sport...

[narly1]

it all falls down to "THE WIND"
Mounten air is gusy,hard driven and ,shafty (70 knts is command)
sea level wind mellows out. (40)

i would learn to fly a 3m trainer (foile on land)
then pick your poison.

[Bulldog]

It's true I never tried to snowkite with a bow. It doesn't really solve the issue of stopping, though, does it?

Yoko -- you are just a liar to say you don't like to be cold. :) Those days at Alameda in February I am way, way colder than I have ever been when skiing or snowkiting. A true cold wimp would never even thing about kiting in the Bay during the winter!

[michael]

"Southwest ticket to Salt Lake City - $65 one way.
Rent a car - $20 a day
Hotel - $55 a day
Seeing your significant other kite riding - priceless!
There are things money can't buy, for everything else there is MasterCard."

So, I read how easy (and safe!) it is, everyone just screaming in one voice - a paradise in Utah! You will snowkite by the end of your very first day! Skis are easier than a snowboard, just put them on and you go!

I don't know why, but I bought it. We have been practicing with a trainer kite, then with a 5m C-kite. Everything was great, the idea of trying it on the snow was just perfect! Indeed, no body dragging, no waterstart, just put the skis on - and go!

First time on the snow, I launched the kite, and very quickly realized I couldn't put the skis on while keeping the kite in neutral. Putting the first ski on - no problem, but as soon as you raise the second foot from the ground, there is no resistance and the slightest movement of the kite moves you, so you can't put the ski on the second foot. Ok, no problem - let's put the skis on first and then launch the kite. Good, it works!

The moment kite is in the air you are moving, keeping skis in the V-shape trying to figure out how to stop. Takes a while, but you'll figure it out and get used to it. For those who have been kiteboarding, this is really fun, absolutely. Especially going uphill!

Now let's see what beginners do. On the water the next step is water dragging. Just you and the kite, nothing else. Everytime your kite falls down, you relaunch it, and every beginner knows this strong pull when you forgot to depower the kite when it quickly crosses the power zone. At those moments the water seems like heaven, so you don't want even imagine this strong pull on land.

So how a beginner does it on snow? There is no such thing as body dragging on snow (even though some claim there is - in a nice powder, but I really don't want to try it). So a beginner starts with skis already on. I really can't imagine if he launches the kite himself standing on skis, so I assume an instructor can launch and reattach the kite to him. Ok, he started moving. He needs to control the skis, the stance, the kite, the depower and everything else.

Now, imagine this. A beginner is nervous, his hands are holding the bar very tight, and the most common mistake here - he oversheets the kite. The kite starts falling and drifting into power zone, and our naive beginner instead of sheeting out - sheets in even further. Right in the middle of the power zone, 30 degrees above the ground the kite picks up enough wind and stops, and then with the bar all the way sheeted in, fully powered kite goes straight up yanking the guy off his feet.

Some claim that ski binding are supposed to get released when you fall. I thought they are designed to be released under different forces, not those generated by a kite. Anyway, falling face down with skis on facing the same direction - not good, not good... Your legs are twisted, and who knows what can be wrong in them...

Ok, luckily nothing bad happened to us. What amazed me the most was how misled I was after reading all those claims about snowkiting being the easiest and the safest.

Now, the key arguments I received:

1) on snow you need a much smaller kite, much less forces to keep moving
==> true, but even a smaller kite can be oversheeted and yank you off your feet; besides, beginners on the water can (or should?) start with body dragging with a 5m, they just don't do it and go out with 12m.

2) on snow the progression from smaller size kites to bigger is smoother: 1-2m trainer -> 4m -> 7m -> bigger and bigger; on the water they go from 1-2m trainer kite directly to 12m.
==> on snow this is by necessity. Had they taught on the water in same fashion (trainer -> 5m for body and board dragging -> 12m), the results would have been as good . Water school just don't do it (there can be a long discussion here), and that's the reason snow schools take the credit.

3) relaunching is easier on snow
==> this is true. I spent 95% of my first water lesson on relaunching. After almost every single relaunch the kite was dragging me like crazy so I had to crash it and everything started all over again. This is one of the biggest advantages on the snow - an instructor can relaunch the kite himself, and then re-attach it to the student.

All other arguments are minor or even absurd (e.g. snow surface is predictable, you can loose your board in the water, you can get drown, etc., etc.)

Ok, I got tons of arguments why people believe it's easier on snow. Some people believe snowkiting is THE easiest way to learn kite riding because they don't need to learn body dragging and water start. I can understand. But why a snowkiting school can claim this to be THE safest way to learn ? I did not get even a single strong argument what is so safe about doing it on snow... Is it really a sales catch ?

[KillaHz]

Michael,

in reading your posts it sounds like the school hype got you out to Utah but you did not book with any school and went about it on your own? Forgive me if I misinterprated your description is kind of like saying you read the marketing material for the Best Odessy got all stoked, rented a 12 foot lazer, hit the Caribbean and then were dissapointed with the Odessy for making the Caribbean sound so luxurious when in reality a lazer is not the beast way to cruise the Caribbean.

I have not checked out the thread you claim you were smoked on but I can tell you that a lot of the cenarios you describe in your post here show a general lack of knowledge in the snowkite arena.

Almost everything I've read in this thread so far come to think of it is SPOT OFF!!!

I won't go through and pick a part every post but man, seems like a lot of knowledge being pulled from a shallow well on this one.

[LionKite]

It is two diferent sports!
And Snowkiting IS faster and safer to learn (and cheaper!) than waterkiting!
It is no sales catch it is fact!

It takes 2-4 hours (of paid instruction) for a decent skier or snowboarder to understand kite mechanics and starting to utilise power from their kite.
Now it takes at least 6-10 hours ( of paid instruction) to start riding on the water no matter how good of a poleboarder,surfer or wakeboarder you are.
Also it is safer on the snow because you barely need any kite to get moving so you can still have fun with a 3 or a 5m untill you feel comfortable enough to graduate to some bigger.
On the water you need al least 8-10m right away to even boddydragg so you have a lot more power in your hands to mess up.

Being a good kiteboarder doesn`t mean you are going to be a good snowkiter, but you sure have some predispositions for having fun really fast once the water-snow adaptation process is done.

Considering the wind you would be surprise how buttery-steady winds can get in the moutains when at the right location and elevation!

Spring is around the corner so go and get some while it is here !