Foil Fun

Post general kiteboarding discussion topics here!
1/2inMexico
Contributor
Contributor
Posts:18
Joined:Sat May 11, 2013 7:54 am
Contact:
Re: Foiled agaiN

Post by 1/2inMexico » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:05 am

CdoG wrote:got some rides today on my girlfriends sroka...foil
I found it a bit easier to ride down on the water then my mhl lift witch starts to lift right away
got home without band aids or consulting...
it was a nice day
alameda, 12m, light winds....
So... Is it easier to ride a foil that does NOT lift right away? I was watching a friend attempt to learn on mine.... Saw an amusing sequence where he crashed and my board jumped up onto foiling mode and sped away :)
Mine often feels "touchy" and "sensitive" which is either my sub-par skills, or an overly eager foil/wing setup?

User avatar
Kyle
Regular
Regular
Posts:333
Joined:Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:21 pm
Location:Seattle
Contact:

Re: Foil Fun

Post by Kyle » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:25 am

I found the lift foil difficult to learn on for the same reason. Coupling lift generation with speeds adds another variable to the learning process. My LF foil was much easier to ride. Hadn't been on a foil since my baja trip in November, where I only got 2 days in, and was able to get up first time on the LF and have a good time off a Crissy. No coast guard officers were harmed in the process of learning to foil:) So yes I believe some foils are easier to ride and especially learn on because they actually don't generate too much lift. You have to make them "lift" by shifting your weight and increasing angle of attack of the wing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

1/2inMexico
Contributor
Contributor
Posts:18
Joined:Sat May 11, 2013 7:54 am
Contact:

Re: Foil Fun

Post by 1/2inMexico » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:51 am

Well.... that's interesting. I too tried the LF in La Ventana this past winter. And I ended up purchasing one. But as I could almost never get myself out of "porpoise mode" (up/down/up/down) I ended up switching out the fuselage and wings to something with a higher aspect. Up here in Wa & Ore we have a home-grown fabricator. Mounted to the LF mast. Rides are now very sweet:
Image

User avatar
CdoG
Old School
Old School
Posts:1485
Joined:Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:12 pm
Location:AlAmedA
Contact:

Re: Foil Fun

Post by CdoG » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:45 am

ya I too think the lift starts lifting right away ...and a bit higher aspect foil seems to let you get on and settled in
ive had a bunch of water start crashes and the board is foiling away without me on it



1/2 in that's a nice looking foil!


don't get me wrong ive seen aloha rip his lift strapless and some day I want to foil up just like him.

User avatar
Kyle
Regular
Regular
Posts:333
Joined:Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:21 pm
Location:Seattle
Contact:

Re: Foil Fun

Post by Kyle » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:34 am

wing aspect ratio has very little influence on pitch control/longitudinal stability. in fact, there may be an inverse relationship. the below chart shows that high aspect wings with low sweep are actually less stable than low-aspect wings of the same sweep. aspect ratio has a significant impact on roll stability and maneuverability, as well as lift/drag ratios. but the porpoising and pitch-stability comes from the configuration and design of the foil system, and not the aspect ratio of the wings. For example, the length of the fuselage and the lift distribution between fore/aft wings have a much bigger impact than the aspect ratio of the wings themselves. I think this general statement is valid within the working speeds and fluids of typical kite foils.
stability vs aspect.png
from cited report
stability vs aspect.png (381.53KiB)Viewed 4441 times
source: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA801363

Technical marketing in sports equipment is often poorly understood and in many cases completely wrong. I’ve spent some time in the bike industry and still struggle with a lot of incorrect information related to the marketing of carbon fiber bikes. I don’t think these companies should (or could afford) to commission NASA for wind tunnel testing, but much of the concepts they market are basic fundamentals. While I’m not an aerodynamics guy, I do have a lot of experience with aerostructures. The most important thing is just finding what works for you, reading between the lines of the marketing materials:) All that matters is that you have fun doing what you’re doing, whether it’s foiling or surfing or mountain biking. While it doesn’t always require the most advanced equipment, sometimes it does become more fun that way:)

User avatar
sflinux
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts:291
Joined:Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:02 pm
Location:ocean beach
Contact:

Re: Foil Fun

Post by sflinux » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:24 pm

I would think that a front/rear wing balance point that is further from the mast would make a less stable ride. It is my understanding that the MHL Lift is difficult to ride because the balance point is so far forward.
http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.phpf ... ft#p819936
The other thing that makes a wing difficult to ride is the position of front and rear foot. i.) Once a front foot goes farther forward than where a balance position of riding on the water, you'll get nose dives (pearls).
ii.) And if the rear foot is too far back, the wing is more likely to become unstable and buck.
The other variable is the balance of the front and rear wing angle of attack. Once you find a good position for your front boot (based on i.), you can adjust the angle of attack of the rear wing relative to the front, to move the balance position of where your rear foot would lie, when everything is in balance.
For example, shimming the nose of the rear wing down, will bring the nose of the board up, meaning you'll have to move your rear foot forward to compensate. And shimming the nose of the rear wing up, will bring the nose of the board down, meaning you'll have to move your rear foot back to compensate.
When I first learned to ride on my 2002 Rush Randle board, the board was unstable until I found the proper position for my front strap. After that, I used a dime to shim my rear wing. I recommend riding without a rear foot strap.

User avatar
CdoG
Old School
Old School
Posts:1485
Joined:Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:12 pm
Location:AlAmedA
Contact:

foiled aroUnd

Post by CdoG » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:53 pm

Way to technical for me....
I got one loose front strap on the mhl lift
Two loose front straps on the sorka
Fey
My G.f. rode today like her 4 or 5 time ,went upwind and had long reachs both sides
Had to body drag back downwind I think she had her brake through
Me on the other hand struggled down wind into a hole and called it a day.

User avatar
Aloha
Old School
Old School
Posts:1514
Joined:Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:45 pm
Location:the beach
Contact:

Re: Foil Fun

Post by Aloha » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Low aspects will create lift at ridiculously slow speed. I think the porpoising is mainly because it's creating lift even at low speed and the new rider doesn't know how to harness it yet (= drop), and then getting going again even for a second you come back up (= lift)

Repeat this and you're porpoising along

My advice to Charlie and others at this stage is to focus on doing a broad reach and not worrying about going upwind at all. By eliminating having to concentrate on yaw and roll axis control you can focus 100% on figuring out how to entrain the muscles to control pitch.

Now that you're heading across the water without worrying about yaw or roll ... Think of the kite as a throttle that will control your board speed as you move completely flat across the water.

Understand the board will start to lift eventually without you doing anything else based on speed alone (even with the "pitch control" at "neutral" in your feet).

Now use the throttle to slowly increase the board speed until you dance with the lift off point, then back it down so it lands. First try for a 1 second lift off then land. Then 2 seconds, then 3 seconds, then more. You need to learn the feeling of counteracting the lift that is created by the speed through lean (and it's forward, which is a very unnatural instinct while kiting). Keep repeating this over and over until your lift offs and landings go for longer and longer.

Eventually you will feel like you don't need to land at all and congrats you're foiling!

User avatar
CdoG
Old School
Old School
Posts:1485
Joined:Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:12 pm
Location:AlAmedA
Contact:

Post by CdoG » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:57 pm

aloha
I'm not trying to go upwind..im just trying to get on it, on any point of sail...
got to propos today and that was a victory..! played with the bar sheeting in but mostly OUT
also got more rides and had hard assed crash's
went hyper fast and had to bail


Sflinux
when I first got the lift and it would just pop wheelies when I tried to get on
it
i shimmed it then it would just pearl.. go submarine on me I used a thin washer
....so i took it out and try to ride stock
love n the foil ThiNg

thanks to all for the help

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests